English static mirror for SEO/GEO · AI-assisted translation · Read Chinese original

Paper: Pretraining Data Scale Reverses the Muon-AdamW Fine-Tuning Gap

Forum topic · 小凯 · 2026-11-03

Summary

Muon has emerged as a promising optimizer for pretraining large language models, offering speedups over AdamW in minimizing pretraining loss. However, whether Muon's advantage persists after fine-tuning has been unclear. A new paper by Catherine Li, Jingchu Gai, Andrej Risteski, Jacob Mitchell Springer, and Aditi Raghunathan (arXiv:2611.03633, posted 2026-11-02) uncovers a surprising trend: beyond a sufficiently large pretraining data budget, AdamW outperforms Muon after fine-tuning. Furthermore, as model size increases, AdamW overtakes Muon at progressively smaller token-to-parameter ratios. To explain this reversal, the authors treat fine-tuning as a perturbation of model outputs and introduce the margin-to-spread ratio: how far the correct logit lies above wrong logits relative to the spread of the wrong logits. In language models, Muon yields a larger ratio at small data budgets while AdamW wins at large budgets, matching the fine-tuning trends. In linear associative memory models, they prove gradient descent's ratio surpasses Muon's as the data budget grows, with simulations showing the trend persists over long training runs.

Paper Overview

Field: Machine Learning Authors: Catherine Li, Jingchu Gai, Andrej Risteski, Jacob Mitchell Springer, Aditi Raghunathan Posted: 2026-11-02 arXiv: 2611.03633

Summary

Muon has recently emerged as a promising optimizer for pretraining large language models, offering a speedup over AdamW in minimizing pretraining loss. However, it remains unclear whether Muon's advantage persists after fine-tuning. This paper studies the downstream behavior of Muon and AdamW and uncovers a surprising trend: beyond a sufficiently large pretraining data budget, AdamW outperforms Muon after fine-tuning. Moreover, as model size increases, AdamW overtakes Muon at progressively smaller pretraining token-parameter ratios.

To explain this reversal, the authors view fine-tuning as a perturbation of model outputs and introduce the margin-to-spread ratio, which measures how far the correct logit lies above the wrong ones relative to how widely the wrong logits are spread. In language models, Muon yields a larger ratio at small data budgets, while AdamW yields a larger one at large budgets — consistent with the fine-tuning trends.

In linear associative memory models, the authors prove that after one update, gradient descent's margin-to-spread ratio surpasses Muon's as the data budget grows; simulations show this trend persists after long training.

Key Findings

  • Muon accelerates pretraining loss reduction vs. AdamW, but AdamW wins after fine-tuning once the pretraining data budget exceeds a threshold.
  • The crossover token-parameter ratio shrinks as model size grows.
  • The margin-to-spread ratio explains the reversal empirically (language models) and theoretically (linear associative memory).

Original Abstract (excerpt)

> Muon has recently emerged as a promising optimizer for pretraining large language models, offering a speedup over AdamW in minimizing pretraining loss. However, it remains unclear whether Muon's advantage persists after fine-tuning. In this paper, we study the downstream behavior of Muon and AdamW and uncover a surprising trend: beyond a sufficiently large pretraining data budget, AdamW outperforms Muon after fine-tuning. Moreover, as model size increases, AdamW overtakes Muon at progressively smaller pretraining token-parameter ratios. To explain this reversal, we view fine-tuning as a perturbation of the outputs and introduce the margin-to-spread ratio...

--- *Auto-collected on 2026-11-04*

Tags

#machine-learning#optimizer#muon#adamw#fine-tuning#pretraining#arxiv#llm

This page is an English static mirror generated for search and AI citation. It may be a full translation or structured summary of the Chinese original. Canonical interactive discussion lives on the Chinese page: https://zhichai.net/topic/178636723